Curse

the_jos · Sep 04, 2009, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ccat

Also, saying 'just get out of the AoE' is very irresponsible of a Monk in a PuG.

Don't agree. People need to understand it's a team game. Even if they are playing PUG.
And playing as a team also means considering the needs of the members of the team. One of the needs monks have is that players take responsibility in making sure they don't take unneccessairy damage.

That's also my main problem with 'spamming prots'.
Sure, microing heroes isn't fun so when playing with H&H this might be usefull.
But with teams that consist of mainly human players a well-placed prot and decent positioning of the team should do the trick. Not spamming prots (or heals).

I'm aware that PUGs don't work this way many times.
But still I think more knowledgeable (monk, but also other profession) players should at least ask them to consider their advice on positioning and taking aggro.
It makes things easier for the entire team and thus everyone benefits from it.
The monks from getting less stress from having to clean up the mess others create and the rest of the team because 'all of a sudden things go far more smoothly than before'.

If you say PUGs won't listen at all, won't learn at all and don't care, why would you still play with them? It's probably no fun playing monk in such a team since everyone is fighting for themself instead of being benefitial to the team. And I think team play is what Guild Wars is about, even when playing with PUG. Else H&H will do just fine and have far less risk of making the typical human errors and annoying stuff (bad aggro, going afk, disconnect and such).

Burst Cancel · Sep 04, 2009, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ccat

Good points. And while boonprot and every single prot in existence basically is a form of healing in someway it is still damage reduction too. But yeah, never really considered it healing.

But, why is RoF no replacement for WoH? Please elaborate.

You missed my point about boonprot; I'm not saying that all prots are "a form of healing". Guardian doesn't heal, and neither does Prot Spirit. Boonprot is a healer because it gets boon+DF bonus on every cast, and uses Dismiss Condition as straight redbarup.

It should be obvious why RoF is not a replacement for WoH.
- RoF is not redbarup.
- RoF is not redbarup.
- RoF is not redbarup.
- RoF less efficient than WoH, even when hit for max damage (152 vs. 213 @14). Its average efficiency is even worse, because most things won't hit for max.
- RoF is highly conditional, and the condition is difficult to control. Wanding the target during a spike or using multiple small packets of damage rather than a few big ones renders RoF worthless.
- RoF is completely ineffective against degen (read: RoF is not redbarup).

There are, in fact, very few skills that are comparable to WoH.

Ccat · Sep 04, 2009, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

You missed my point about boonprot; I'm not saying that all prots are "a form of healing". Guardian doesn't heal, and neither does Prot Spirit. Boonprot is a healer because it gets boon+DF bonus on every cast, and uses Dismiss Condition as straight redbarup.

It should be obvious why RoF is not a replacement for WoH.
- RoF is not redbarup.
- RoF is not redbarup.
- RoF is not redbarup.
- RoF less efficient than WoH, even when hit for max damage (152 vs. 213 @14). Its average efficiency is even worse, because most things won't hit for max.
- RoF is highly conditional, and the condition is difficult to control. Wanding the target during a spike or using multiple small packets of damage rather than a few big ones renders RoF worthless.
- RoF is completely ineffective against degen (read: RoF is not redbarup).

There are, in fact, very few skills that are comparable to WoH.

Well firstly, let me say I am talking about RoF in a Boon format, not a sole spell. So considering this, RoF is redbarup, though healing for less than WoH. And I don't agree with RoF being conditional, that condition can be worked round. Even against quick packets of damage the skill while under boonprot still heals 100ish and can give 2 hitsworth of health back. This is conceding I'm under the assumption the armor packets you're talking about are pretty tiny they won't bother you. Even against huge packets of damage, when a lvl 30 melee unit can slam you for 200 points a hit, let's say you cast PS on said slammed ally. At 60 a hit the enemy has to hit around 4 times before they can get back to where they were. Doesn't sound all that, but then I would have Aegis chains and Guardian, making the prot effective. When you reduce the damage of melee units to the extent that I do, there's usually only one damage source left, and there's your large packets.

To be honest in a situation such as the latter, Spirit Bond is a much better alternative usually. In the former, SoA wins out if you're talking about the full on MM team hitting a target with Sliver armor. Then, RoF, SB and SG won't do but to be frank neither will WoH.

Also, I find WoH's reuqirement quite difficult to meet at times (I struggle to let someone reach that amount of health), and I think Spirit Light outdoes it by far purely because it's not an elite.

Burst Cancel · Sep 05, 2009, 03:59 AM // 03:59

RoF under Boon requires two skill slots, 1 pip of energy regen, and 6e per cast, with more than half of its effect completely dependent on the next damage packet. Still not comparable to WoH.

But again, a Boonprot is a completely different animal to begin with. WoH is a single, standalone skill that doesn't even require emgt to run effectively, with a condition that's trivial to meet. Spirit Light doesn't even come close. 1s cast (easy reactionable interrupt), less efficient (172 vs. 213), no divine favor bonus, requires health sac or spirit within earshot, and requires a Rt.

Fleeting · Sep 05, 2009, 09:25 AM // 09:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ccat

Good points. And while boonprot and every single prot in existence basically is a form of healing in someway it is still damage reduction too. But yeah, never really considered it healing.

But, why is RoF no replacement for WoH? Please elaborate.

RoF is not healing. RoF can be as efficient as WoH provided your pre-protted target takes a 100+ damage hit. However, if RoF just eats that 19-30 damage wand attack, you're losing a lot of efficiency - WoH is consistent, RoF is not.

Edit: Burst Cancel beat me to it.

Ccat · Sep 05, 2009, 10:43 AM // 10:43

I see...thanks guys.

Age · Sep 10, 2009, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ccat

Sure, it can be about that too. I originally wanted advice and now I see that GoR is not worthwhile. Concerning Assassin's Promise, I thought I could never handle something that requires the hero-esque ability to go through foes and allies back and forth, but it's easier than I imagined.

You can not use two elites and Assin Promise is better used on a Mesmer not Monk.

Quote:

Thus I want a build that can effectively spam a prot like this that doesn't fall dead at the sight of 4 monks or so. I'm going to try using using "Victory is Mine!" next at 6 Tactics with 8 or so conditions equipped on the heroes. It probably can't keep up with the raw bulk of Energy that Shield Guardian demands, but meh.

Quote:

This has already been tried with no success.

Axel Zinfandel · Sep 11, 2009, 01:05 AM // 01:05

By all means run it if you want. I mean, it's awesome that monks can spam like eles (not as much as eles obviously, but ya'll know what I mean. That and monks benefit from DF and higher attributes.

The same type of idea (GoR+DS, SS) works just as well for a healing build running Heal Other/Jamei's. slap Heal Party on there, Healing Ribbon, and say, MindBender, and things get interesting.

It isn't the most effective thing by any means, prot or heal, but if it floats your boat, awesome

maxxfury · Sep 11, 2009, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

Assin Promise is better used on a Mesmer not Monk.

I presume that you havent actually tried it...a perma one monk aegis chain, almost perma seed of life, free small prots, cheap ass PS/SB almost constantly recharged SOA...Boon prots have ALWAYS ran on regular skills with an elite eman skill...no exception. AP just takes some NON-redbar mentality and the slightest amount of multitask + micro to run.(unless some one knows a valid boon prot that DIDNT req elite eman)

shouldnt have expected anything else tbh...'assin promise'...lol

personally i think ASSASSINS promise is pretty badass, it lets you do things you shouldnt be able to do! while its fragile enough for idiots to mess up all day long!...so doesnt require a nerf.. On any caster class.

but seriously..if you cant proc an Ap..you are bad. Seriously..

so try this
OwcT8Yo6RaBamoeIH8uCAIggjA
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Mo/A_AP_BoonProt
And yes Ccat is right...its WAY easier to handle than ppl imagine.

Chthon · Sep 11, 2009, 02:58 AM // 02:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

so try this
OwcT8Yo6RaBamoeIH8uCAIggjA
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Mo/A_AP_BoonProt
And yes Ccat is right...its WAY easier to handle than ppl imagine.

While I'm a big fan of AP monks, I don't much care for that build at all. A few reasons why:

1. Divine Boon does not play well with 10e spells. The effect of the -1 regen is equivalent to increasing spell costs by 1/3 (and then plus 1 for boon's added energy loss). The bonus heal is a great value on a 5e spell. It's not so great on 10e spell though. Since the major selling points of this build are lots of Aegis and lots of PS, Boon's just not a great choice.

(If anyone wants to take it that far, this is a pretty solid argument against Boon in general. Insofar as certain 10e spells are **the** spells to have, Boon isn't a spell to have.)

2. As BurstCancel likes to say, "RoF is not a redbarup." Even with the boost from Boon, it's still a rather weak heal outside of situations where you can count on the conditional heal to come up big. This would be forgivable if the bar had a reliable heal somewhere, but it doesn't.

3. Missed AP is fatal. No matter how good you are, sooner or later, AP will miss and you'll end up watching that 45 sec recharge slooooowly roll around. For offensive characters, this is annoying, but it's not the end of the world -- your offense stalls, you have a longer-than-necessary fight, you back in the swing of things in 45 sec. For monks, it can be the end of the world. If missing AP takes too much of your functionality with it, your party's going to die before AP recharges. AP monk bars have to be designed around this unpleasant truth such that they can continue to function without AP if they must. This bar doesn't. Most of the skills have long/longish recharges, and, out of the two that don't, PS is too pricey to use without the extra energy from AP (especially with the extra drag from Boon). That basically leaves you as a Boon/RoF spammer for 45 sec. That's bad...

4. No room for hex/condition removal.

My solution to all of the above problems is a AP heal/prot hybrid.

If you insist on trying to make AP Boon work, replace SoA with Dismiss. That should give you a more-or-less reliable redbarup, along with some removal (although not the hex removal that I'd prefer).

maxxfury · Sep 11, 2009, 03:05 AM // 03:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

My solution to all of the above problems is a AP heal/prot hybrid.

if you were to roll the history of that wiki bar you would see a pretty solid
hybrid bar on there(that i run more often, but is actualyl worse off since the SS update)..that alas was shot down hard but the regulars ^ and you know what its like there.

patient/kiss/ps/seed/ap/aegis/ and one of:
cure hex/dismiss condition/soa/great dwarf weapons
with selfless spirit

But on that note: missing AP on the bar i posted isnt fatal with the new selfless spirit.

Age · Sep 11, 2009, 06:56 AM // 06:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

I presume that you havent actually tried it...a perma one monk aegis chain, almost perma seed of life, free small prots, cheap ass PS/SB almost constantly recharged SOA...Boon prots have ALWAYS ran on regular skills with an elite eman skill...no exception. AP just takes some NON-redbar mentality and the slightest amount of multitask + micro to run.(unless some one knows a valid boon prot that DIDNT req elite eman)

shouldnt have expected anything else tbh...'assin promise'...lol

personally i think ASSASSINS promise is pretty badass, it lets you do things you shouldnt be able to do! while its fragile enough for idiots to mess up all day long!...so doesnt require a nerf.. On any caster class.

but seriously..if you cant proc an Ap..you are bad. Seriously..

so try this
OwcT8Yo6RaBamoeIH8uCAIggjA
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Mo/A_AP_BoonProt
And yes Ccat is right...its WAY easier to handle than ppl imagine.

BoonProtects have never ran this it was always Mo/N offering of blood and Mo/Mes for E-Drain and Mantra of Recall.No I haven't ran it and won't because it won't work in 8v8 set up.You don't gain any energy form it.It is better for a Mesmer.

maxxfury · Sep 11, 2009, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

BoonProtects have never ran this it was always Mo/N offering of blood and Mo/Mes for E-Drain and Mantra of Recall.No I haven't ran it and won't because it won't work in 8v8 set up.You don't gain any energy form it.It is better for a Mesmer.

Your forgot to add mels resistance.

how the HELL do you NOT gain energy from it?! its a 5e cast, with a 14/15~return.....thats 9/10 return every cast....add in selfless spirit cutting costs by 3 per cast....its WAY more than viable!

wake up.. of course you havent ran and it wont work in 8v8 you muppet..its a PVE bar with PVE skills..which is quite obviously NOT a pvp setup :S

Come back with SOME understanding and comprehention of the game mechanics, skills and bars.

*yawn.

Axel Zinfandel · Sep 11, 2009, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Assassins promise builds should only be used if you are a supporting monk. Make sure you aren't the backbone of the team and nothing should go wrong should AP fail. And bring "finish him", even on a monk bar, if you have room.

Fleeting · Sep 11, 2009, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

BoonProtects have never ran this it was always Mo/N offering of blood and Mo/Mes for E-Drain and Mantra of Recall.No I haven't ran it and won't because it won't work in 8v8 set up.You don't gain any energy form it.It is better for a Mesmer.

This thread involves the PvE use of boon/prot. It is not expected for an AP boon/prot build to succeed in PvP and thus all conditions typical in an 8v8 environment (like hex removal spam and the lack of reliable kills on / near hex application) are utterly irrelevant. As AP is an excellent PvE energy management spell, it can and will maintain a PvE bar.

Age · Sep 11, 2009, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

Your forgot to add mels resistance.

how the HELL do you NOT gain energy from it?! its a 5e cast, with a 14/15~return.....thats 9/10 return every cast....add in selfless spirit cutting costs by 3 per cast....its WAY more than viable!

wake up.. of course you havent ran and it wont work in 8v8 you muppet..its a PVE bar with PVE skills..which is quite obviously NOT a pvp setup :S

Come back with SOME understanding and comprehention of the game mechanics, skills and bars.

*yawn.

I am not talking pve skills and No MR wouldn't work as good as OoB,E-Drain and M of R.I fully understand how the game work the mechanics behind it as I have been playing this class since beta.I started in Halls of Heros when it was at ToPK.

I woud rather use the Mo/E WoH hybrid for PvE works much better as for interruptable areas Mo/Mes Mantra of Resolve.

Chthon · Sep 12, 2009, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

if you were to roll the history of that wiki bar you would see a pretty solid
hybrid bar on there(that i run more often, but is actualyl worse off since the SS update)..that alas was shot down hard but the regulars ^ and you know what its like there.

patient/kiss/ps/seed/ap/aegis/ and one of:
cure hex/dismiss condition/soa/great dwarf weapons
with selfless spirit

But on that note: missing AP on the bar i posted isnt fatal with the new selfless spirit.

I think you had a much better build to start out with than what's posted now. The PvX voters are morons.

maxxfury · Sep 12, 2009, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Age

I am not talking pve skills and No MR wouldn't work as good as OoB,E-Drain and M of R.I fully understand how the game work the mechanics behind it as I have been playing this class since beta.I started in Halls of Heros when it was at ToPK.

I woud rather use the Mo/E WoH hybrid for PvE works much better as for interruptable areas Mo/Mes Mantra of Resolve.

Its a pve bar in a pve thread in a pve board.
Hence the inclusion of pve skills..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I think you had a much better build to start out with than what's posted now. The PvX voters are morons.

for the most part...i cant disagree

and sadly a fair few here too who cant see past "OMGZ woh! is the only thing that works!!"

Axel Zinfandel · Sep 12, 2009, 07:48 AM // 07:48

No one is saying WoH is the only thing that works. They are saying it is most efficiant

more specifically it's the most efficient single target heal in the game.

In the current state of the game, glimmer with selfless spirit comes in at a close second due to spam potential.

It depends on what situation you are anticipating. If you expect characters being spiked below 50% health, yes, WoH is best.

If you expect more spread out pressure or non threatening spikes, Glimmer

partywide damage/ AoE? LoD

the best monk isn't one who slaps WoH on their bar thinking he's done. The best monk is one who adapts to the area. Same can be said of most any class

Ccat · Sep 12, 2009, 09:54 AM // 09:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

In the current state of the game, glimmer with selfless spirit comes in at a close second due to spam potential.

Didn't that get unfavored by the community? That was pretty shocking. Yes, WoH is better but that doesn't mean the build's useless. There's a 'good' section for that sort of thing. I prefer GoL over WoH anyday because it's the only healing spell that's needed so you have tons of space for Protection etc. WoH isn't so spammable and I've never been good at meeting the condition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

3. Missed AP is fatal. No matter how good you are, sooner or later, AP will miss and you'll end up watching that 45 sec recharge slooooowly roll around. For offensive characters, this is annoying, but it's not the end of the world -- your offense stalls, you have a longer-than-necessary fight, you back in the swing of things in 45 sec. For monks, it can be the end of the world. If missing AP takes too much of your functionality with it, your party's going to die before AP recharges. AP monk bars have to be designed around this unpleasant truth such that they can continue to function without AP if they must. This bar doesn't. Most of the skills have long/longish recharges, and, out of the two that don't, PS is too pricey to use without the extra energy from AP (especially with the extra drag from Boon). That basically leaves you as a Boon/RoF spammer for 45 sec. That's bad...

I was under the assumption that that Seed of Life and Aegis chaining you just did before was worth 45 seconds of being useless. The bar is substantially better than everything else out there, but is the most fragile build ever created. Everything else is substantially worse, but far less fragile. Worth it? ...